Lapse duration not being honored for lapses of multi-step/day relearn cards

Isis McCafferty's Avatar

Isis McCafferty

18 Jul, 2018 01:22 AM

Hi,

I recently set my lapse new duration to 100 (i.e. no penalty for lapsing) and added a multiple relearn step. (1 20 1440)

What my intent is is that even if I miss a fairly mature card, once I have my memory refreshed it should go back where it was.

So far so good. If I miss a card and then get all of its relearn steps right, it seems to work as I expect.

However, what I found is that if I miss any of the relearn steps, the card is reset to one day duration. I can tell because the “Easy” interval is the previous interval length at first, and then if I miss it switches to 1.

I believe this is a problem with multiple relearn steps (possibly multi-day) - when I was doing something similar with only one relearn step I noticed that every time I missed the card it applied my lapse penalty to the current interval.

Another issue I found in testing this bug is, if I have a relearn card with two steps remaining, and it’s my last card, if I review it, then undo that review when it shows me the card again, Anki says that I now have two cards to review, and they have different durations (in this case, the first one had the original duration, the second one had one day, because I missed the card in the review I undid)

Not sure if that one will have any lasting effects but it was strange. :)

Thanks!

  1. 1 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 18 Jul, 2018 03:38 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    To help you narrow it down, it’s definitely the multi-day that causes it. I removed the one day step and that seems to have mitigated the issue.

    For now I suppose I’ll use 6 hours instead of one day :)

  2. Support Staff 2 Posted by Damien Elmes on 18 Jul, 2018 08:27 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Please try the latest Anki 2.1 beta and let me know if you can reproduce the problems with the experimental scheduler enabled.

  3. 3 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 19 Jul, 2018 03:59 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    Sorry, I forgot to mention, this is using the latest beta mobile build, and I have the experimental scheduler enabled.

    It also appears to still penalize me for missing relearn cards even when it’s not a one day interval, just 1 20. But it doesn’t go straight to one day.

    I noticed this effect before when I had it at a 60% lapse new interval, but I thought it was just re-applying the penalty. This doesn’t seem like intended behavior though.

    Thanks!

  4. Support Staff 4 Posted by Damien Elmes on 19 Jul, 2018 04:25 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    The lapse interval % is applied each time you press the Again button - the logic is that if you're forgetting it multiple times then a single reduction in interval length is not enough.

  5. 5 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 19 Jul, 2018 04:46 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    So that makes sense (I agree with it) except that my lapse interval % is
    set to 100, and I’m still losing time.

    When I had a 1-day interval, the duration went straight to 1 day when I
    missed it once. Now it’s less - I think one card went from 20d to 9d - and
    all I changed was removing the 1-day step (so it’s now 1 20 instead of 1 20
    1440).

    I think I saw the same reductions when my lapse interval was 90, so I think
    something isn’t being applied right here.

  6. Support Staff 6 Posted by Damien Elmes on 19 Jul, 2018 06:06 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Thanks for the report, I'll look into this.

  7. Support Staff 7 Posted by Damien Elmes on 23 Jul, 2018 04:22 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Ok, the lapse interval is applied to the actual elapsed interval rather than the scheduled interval. Since you just saw the card, the elapsed time is negligible and the card gets reset. I'm not really sure this should be changed - if you can't remember the card shortly after failing it, sending it back into the future may be overly optimistic.

  8. 8 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 23 Jul, 2018 05:01 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    I think the number should be applied to what I consider to be the interval
    of the card, not a number which can vary wildly depending on what time of
    day I review my deck or when I take breaks. I think an old card will be
    easier for me to remember in the future once I’ve been reliably refreshed
    on it, so it makes sense to apply this penalty to the saved interval of the
    card every time.

  9. Support Staff 9 Posted by Damien Elmes on 24 Jul, 2018 09:15 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    I'll move this to the community section - anyone with thoughts either way please chime in.

  10. 10 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 24 Jul, 2018 10:02 PM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    One thing I'd like to draw attention to is that the original issue pointed out that missing any of the relearn steps I had set up in the 1 20 1440 relearn schedule reset the duration to 1 day, regardless of previous interval, regardless of penalty setting, and regardless of minimum interval setting (!). Just removing the 1440 step changed it to a different behavior where it lops off large chunks of the interval when I miss, which is an improvement, but I thought I explicitly disabled this behavior by setting the lapse duration to 100.

    I set it to 100 because I felt like I was still having too much penalty for lapses at my previous setting of 80, which I had brought up from 60 ... only to find out that this setting is applied to an unintuitive value which I don't think we've actually bottomed out on.

    The penalty for missing a relearn card is currently completely unpredictable and it seems to be unrelated to any setting that I would think should control it.

    I agree that there should be some additional penalty for missing a card while it's in relearn, and maybe we should even have a way to configure that too (though we are sort of drowning in configuration options already); the problem is just that I want to be able to actually experiment with that value in isolation (for example, the experiment I wanted to run here was "What if I had a brief burst of high intensity refreshing of lapsed long-mature cards, and then put them back where they were?") and that's currently not possible.

  11. Support Staff 11 Posted by Damien Elmes on 27 Jul, 2018 06:35 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Thank you for elaborating; I've given it some thought and will change the behaviour in the next rc.

  12. 12 Posted by Vit on 30 Jul, 2018 07:58 PM

    Vit's Avatar

    @Damien:
    Lapsed cards
    feedback on whether to use the Actual interval or Scheduled ivl:
    If I lapse the overdue card ( overdue >=10%), i'd reschedule it AGAIN for the same ivl-- without
    registering the card as lapsed.

    Related thoughts:
    Medical students complain that intervals grow too fast. Can you consider these 2 changes:

    1. When clicking "Options", open the Tab which was used last time - instead of showing the NEW Tab.
      This will make it easier to change the "Interval Modifier" on the fly, when the value is too big.

    2. Interval Ranges.
      Thanks to your add-on "Change Order of Reviews...", we can take advantage of the fact that Intervals
      increase / decrease in the same direction:
      Preset the IM-% for a few Ranges:

    Range 1 - 7 ivl-% = 100%
    Range 10 -14 ivl = 70%
    Range 15 - 21 ivl = 50% and so on up to 10%.

    As interval falls into the next Range, Ivl Modifyer -% will be changed by Anki -- according to
    the user preset numbers -- as shown below.

    1. Lapsed cards Defaults.
      I think the Relearning step is too small ( 20 would be better; plus Ankii will wait the full delay ).
  13. Support Staff 13 Posted by Damien Elmes on 31 Jul, 2018 01:39 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    One of the advantages of the change is that it follows the principle of least surprise - applying different multipliers based on how overdue a card is would be a step in the wrong direction IMHO.

  14. 14 Posted by Vit on 01 Aug, 2018 01:46 AM

    Vit's Avatar

    @Damien
    I am afraid you misread my post; i am talking about the Intervals Scheduled by Anki. They grow very fast for the Students. Even the long-term users here recommend different New_Ivl-% -- from 10 to 70%; they are trying to discover the near-optimum value; it is impossible - because it can not be a constant value, imo.

    One of the advantages of the change ....

    What change ? I am on Anki2.0

    Thanks for answering.

  15. Support Staff 15 Posted by Damien Elmes on 01 Aug, 2018 10:35 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Were you not suggesting that lapses are treated differently when the card was overdue? I do not think that is a good idea.

    The change refers to the behaviour described in post 7 being changed back to the way the standard Anki scheduler behaves.

  16. 16 Posted by Vit on 01 Aug, 2018 10:53 PM

    Vit's Avatar

    Were you not suggesting that lapses are treated differently when the card was overdue? I do not think that is a good idea.

    Yes I did; but it has nothing to do with the suggestion For the New_Ivl_Ranges.
    I am saying that
    "If I lapse the overdue card ( overdue >=10%), i'd reschedule it AGAIN for the same ivl-- without registering the card as lapsed."
    Rationale: the significant Overdue amount is (or could be) the reason i forgot the card. So i am being punished for it by Anki resetting the card. The solution to reschedule the card is like the second chance to test if i'd remember it for the SAME interval.
    The concern is - the Retention chart; i would not want to register this card as Failure. This situation is wide-spread ( tons of overdue cards).

    Other two issues have nothing to do with Overdueing.

  17. Support Staff 17 Posted by Damien Elmes on 02 Aug, 2018 07:03 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Since you've taken the discussion on a tangent, I suggest if you'd like to discuss this further you create a new post about the specific point you'd like to discuss and see what the community thinks.

  18. 18 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 02 Nov, 2018 01:14 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    Hi Damien,

    Checking back in - it looks like this still hasn't been resolved in latest betas. Did you change your mind on whether you wanted to fix it?

  19. Support Staff 19 Posted by Damien Elmes on 02 Nov, 2018 03:55 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    No, I did change it - the new interval should be relative to the previously scheduled one: https://github.com/dae/anki/commit/a728595c1d5d8fadfd57b86af2411dd8...

  20. 20 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 02 Nov, 2018 04:01 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    Hmm, that’s strange. I’ll pay closer attention next time I fail one twice, but I could swear I’ve had the same behavior for the last few months. I didn’t see it in patch notes so I thought you hadn’t changed it yet.

  21. Support Staff 21 Posted by Damien Elmes on 02 Nov, 2018 04:22 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    It looks like I forgot to port this one over to AnkiMobile, which might explain things?

  22. 22 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 02 Nov, 2018 04:33 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    Yep, that’d do it :)

  23. Support Staff 23 Posted by Damien Elmes on 16 Nov, 2018 10:33 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Just letting you know this is still on the todo list - while it didn't make it into beta 5, it should make it into the next one.

  24. Support Staff 24 Posted by Damien Elmes on 16 Nov, 2018 10:34 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Sorry, I mean beta 4.

  25. Support Staff 25 Posted by Damien Elmes on 21 Nov, 2018 11:20 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    The new build should be out within an hour - please let me know how you go.

  26. 26 Posted by Isis McCafferty on 23 Nov, 2018 03:55 AM

    Isis McCafferty's Avatar

    It works! (Took me until today to have a re-lapse :) )

    Thanks for fixing this, now I can be way more aggressive with my lapse intervals.

  27. Support Staff 27 Posted by Damien Elmes on 23 Nov, 2018 11:18 AM

    Damien Elmes's Avatar

    Great, thanks for letting me know.

Comments are closed, but you can start a new discussion.

Keyboard shortcuts

Generic

? Show this help
ESC Blurs the current field

Comment Form

r Focus the comment reply box
^ + ↩ Submit the comment

You can use Command ⌘ instead of Control ^ on Mac